Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Management Denial
Have you ever visited a struggling repair shop, or any business for that matter? Granted, as just a visitor we have a huge advantage of being on the outside looking in and simply having a different perspective. I'm curious if you've noticed similar trends that I have.
1) Everyone in a "management" position is convinced they provide tremendous value for their shops services.
2) They only use high quality parts.
3) They have all the tooling they need to properly complete repairs.
4) Their techs have plenty of training to stay on top of new technology, or at least enough to stay on top of what they feel they need to stay on top of.
5) There is an outside influence as to why the shop is struggling. (Economy, time of year, elections, weather, etc)
It may not be all 5, but usually it is 3 or more.
Thoughts?
Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Management Denial
MattFMN wrote:
Have you ever visited a struggling repair shop, or any business for that matter? Granted, as just a visitor we have a huge advantage of being on the outside looking in and simply having a different perspective. I'm curious if you've noticed similar trends that I have.
1) Everyone in a "management" position is convinced they provide tremendous value for their shops services.
2) They only use high quality parts.
3) They have all the tooling they need to properly complete repairs.
4) Their techs have plenty of training to stay on top of new technology, or at least enough to stay on top of what they feel they need to stay on top of.
5) There is an outside influence as to why the shop is struggling. (Economy, time of year, elections, weather, etc)
It may not be all 5, but usually it is 3 or more.
Thoughts?
Later, Matt.
Hi Matt,
I have visited a great many struggling businesses and agree, particularly with number five. I am certain the executives at GM are even now saying the same things in a fashion.
There may be nothing as infinite as the human mind's ability to deceive it self. In the end, excuses are only that and a mismanaged business fails. Perhaps the excuses may offer solace, but the end result is the same.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:
With there being what may be an insurmountable inability to consistently step out of "being part of the business", how does one get help in seeing the business's faults? When looking at struggling shops, the issues are usually quite apparent and those involved continually are blind to it. I'm not suggesting anyone involved in this forum has a business or works for a business that is floundering, but I think it is great food for thought on how not to get trapped by blindness. Whether it is keeping open communication lines with staff (eliminating fear amongst staff to voice what they see as issues or potential issues) or going so far as to hiring a business analyst. Reading and participating in this forum, I feel, is one of those steps to learning to really see your business and how you may go about improving it for the better of everyone involved (clients, staff, owner, etc.).
Can you honestly say you offer a fair service for what you charge? Could it be improved? How?
Can you really say that you don't sacrifice quality in the name of speed or better yet fear? Fear of failing to deliver as promised? Fear of being more expensive than the competition?
Can you honestly say that service isn't short-cutted? Short-cutted to make time (a tech on flat-rate comes to mind). Short-cutted to improve profits. Short-cutted because no one involved was informed of the complete repair (a module update/reflash was required to finish the repair properly but wasn't done because proper equipment wasn't available or the bulletin disclosing that information wasn't read, or a revised part was issued, etc.).
A list could go on, but the reality is that often such actions or lack of actions like those listed above are so very common place.
Thanks Louis for your input.
Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject:
MattFMN wrote:
With there being what may be an insurmountable inability to consistently step out of "being part of the business", how does one get help in seeing the business's faults?
Deming often said, help comes from the outside and it comes by invitation. That's actually two very important concepts in one. First, when Deming mentions help, he means someone with profound knowledge. *
* From a previous post:
Louis Altazan wrote:
Before his death, Dr. Deming was working on the theory of profound knowledge. He thought it was necessary for leadership. The components of profound knowledge were:
The theory of knowledge
The theory of a system
A knowledge of statistics and
A knowledge of psychology
He taught, one need not be an expert at any, but needs a working knowledge of all of the components. Heero Haquebord and Bill Baker took the work to the next level after Deming's death. Both are friends, I may be able to entice them to contribute an article on the subject.
The second, perhaps more important part is, "It comes by invitation." To me this means a change of thinking in the business; seeking help. No one can step in and change a business that does not wish to be changed.
MattFMN wrote:
When looking at struggling shops, the issues are usually quite apparent and those involved continually are blind to it. I'm not suggesting anyone involved in this forum has a business or works for a business that is floundering, but I think it is great food for thought on how not to get trapped by blindness. Whether it is keeping open communication lines with staff (eliminating fear amongst staff to voice what they see as issues or potential issues) or going so far as to hiring a business analyst. Reading and participating in this forum, I feel, is one of those steps to learning to really see your business and how you may go about improving it for the better of everyone involved (clients, staff, owner, etc.).
I think this all plays a part. Deming also said, the man doing the job knows everything about it, except how to improve it. Sort of like the Peter principle. If folks knew how and had the ability to change, they would. This is why a leader is necessary. Someone must remove the obstacle to change, be they real or imagined (e.g., fear, lack of knowledge, time, pay systems, culture, etc.)
MattFMN wrote:
Can you honestly say you offer a fair service for what you charge? Could it be improved? How?
Can you really say that you don't sacrifice quality in the name of speed or better yet fear? Fear of failing to deliver as promised? Fear of being more expensive than the competition?
Can you honestly say that service isn't short-cutted? Short-cutted to make time (a tech on flat-rate comes to mind). Short-cutted to improve profits. Short-cutted because no one involved was informed of the complete repair (a module update/reflash was required to finish the repair properly but wasn't done because proper equipment wasn't available or the bulletin disclosing that information wasn't read, or a revised part was issued, etc.).
A list could go on, but the reality is that often such actions or lack of actions like those listed above are so very common place.
All very gripping question, the type every manager should be asking every day. There is always room for improvement. In the automotive repair field, there are countless variables beyond the control of the shop, but these effect all shops equally. In order to prosper a business need not be perfect, only a much better alternative for the client.
A business that is twenty-percent faster, twenty-percent less expensive and twenty percent more accurate than the competition can easily dominate the field. With constant improvement, gains three-times this amount are quite possible.
MattFMN wrote:
Thanks Louis for your input.
Thank you Matt. You are one of the most intuitive people I have ever known.
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Management Denial
MattFMN wrote:
Have you ever visited a struggling repair shop, or any business for that matter? Granted, as just a visitor we have a huge advantage of being on the outside looking in and simply having a different perspective. I'm curious if you've noticed similar trends that I have.
1) Everyone in a "management" position is convinced they provide tremendous value for their shops services.
2) They only use high quality parts.
3) They have all the tooling they need to properly complete repairs.
4) Their techs have plenty of training to stay on top of new technology, or at least enough to stay on top of what they feel they need to stay on top of.
5) There is an outside influence as to why the shop is struggling. (Economy, time of year, elections, weather, etc)
It may not be all 5, but usually it is 3 or more.
Thoughts?
Later, Matt.
I think #5 is a large reason. We seem to have very little personal responsibility in our society. It is not my fault, it is ..... something beyond our control.
The first four our well with in our control, so we think that they are the best they can be. If we admitted they were off, we would then have to change them and that is more work than we want to do.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject:
Louis,
You mentioned help has to come from the outside and by invitation. I think that many shops do this when they hire a consultant or sign up for a program. These people help lots of shops so they must know what works and what does not?
You also said that this person needed to have profound knowledge. Again, I would think the the Gurus, the consultants should have that.
So haven’t these business hired someone from the outside by invitation?
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:20 am Post subject:
Dave wrote:
Louis,
You mentioned help has to come from the outside and by invitation. I think that many shops do this when they hire a consultant or sign up for a program. These people help lots of shops so they must know what works and what does not?
You also said that this person needed to have profound knowledge. Again, I would think the the Gurus, the consultants should have that.
So haven’t these business hired someone from the outside by invitation?
Hi Dave,
There are consultants and there are consultants. Most suffer under the system that created the problem. If they don't produce instant results, they're not going to be around long. They raise a few prices, scare the hell out of the staff (temporarily,) and defray a bunch of future cost with short-term gimmicks. The problems that plague business are long-term. Gimmicks and patches cant help, for long. A business that is heading down does not want to hear about a twenty year program, nor that THEY have to do the work. They want a silver bullet and they want it now, Here's some money, fix the problem! Instant pudding!
If it weren't so, it would not be an almost universal problem and it would have been solved long ago.
Any person that comes in with a program that is going to solve the businesses problems is likely to be an expensive exercise in futility. There is truth and that is outside help, guided by profound knowledge can guide a business, that is what Deming is.
It's sort of like, a viable religion can help save a person's soul, but the person must do the work? The person must change the things that are wrong and do the things that are right?
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:26 am Post subject:
One other almost universal symptom I have found in failing businesses. They have a very defensive stance. Clients are people to be guarded against. Sorting and choosing "low risk" clients is the order of the day. They tend to see business as a mine field to be very carefully traversed. I feel this is symptomatic of a fear response.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:47 am Post subject:
Thanks for the reply, Dave. I've seen these companies in action. Usually they state they will give a free analysis. It's true, for free they come in and watch you for a few days, look over your books, and interview your staff. Then, they analyze their findings and for a few thousand dollars they will explain the analysis for you and offer to basically take over your business to show you how to run it.
Most of the philosophies they use are not Deming based, really. Lots of cost cutting, lots of short-term fixes. Not sure I blame them really, because to justify their price tag they have to do short-term gambits so the owners of the shop feel better about the money they just spent even though in a few month or years they'll be back in the same rut because long-term solutions weren't employed and enforced.
This is not to say that some of their ideas and observations wouldn't work or are wrong. Usually they are quite obvious and would be obvious to us (if looking in from the outside). If you went into a shop and saw technicians answering phones....wouldn't red flags be flying up in the back of your head? If the shop had a back room full of "test parts", would you take that as a clue that perhaps a ramp up in training is in order?
Thanks! Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject:
Where then does a person find the outside help that will point them in the proper direction? It still sounds to me that, you are saying, some one from outside the business or industry needs to come into a business and tell what needs to be improved.
I will agree that short term fixes look good. I also think that we tend to keep fighting the same battles because we never fix the root problem. Sometimes it is like the saying, can't see the forest for the trees.
Thanks for your help guys!
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject:
Hi Dave,
[quote="Dave"]Where then does a person find the outside help that will point them in the proper direction? It still sounds to me that, you are saying, some one from outside the business or industry needs to come into a business and tell what needs to be improved.
louis altazan wrote:
written:
[quote="louis altazan"]Deming often said, help comes from the outside and it comes by invitation. That's actually two very important concepts in one. First, when Deming mentions help, he means someone with profound knowledge. *
When Deming said, "Help comes from the outside," he did NOT say help was a person. Help is this forum, help is information, help is a university, help may also be a friend or a management consultant, but not necessarily.
I think the point is, the business must look outside of it self for help and that help must represent profound knowledge. As Einstein once said, "We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them."
Dave wrote:
I will agree that short term fixes look good. I also think that we tend to keep fighting the same battles because we never fix the root problem. Sometimes it is like the saying, can't see the forest for the trees.
Thanks for your help guys!
You are well on your way my friend. Everything you need is before you, you need only apply what you know. Just a little each day, everyday. This will take immense courage. The courage to change.
If you feel you really need a person with an outside view, let me know. I used to know a man that lives in Scottsdale, AZ, that is excellent.
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject:
Louis Altazan wrote:
When Deming said, "Help comes from the outside," he did NOT say help was a person. Help is this forum, help is information, help is a university, help may also be a friend or a management consultant, but not necessarily.
I think the point is, the business must look outside of it self for help and that help must represent profound knowledge. As Einstein once said, "We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them."
Louis,
Thanks for clearing that up. It was a misunderstanding on my part.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
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