Joined: 28 Jul 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Tifton, GA, USA
Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: suggestions on intermittents?
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with intermittents? Many times I have customers bring in their vehicles with complaints that are hard to duplicate. It's not a matter of equipment or training that makes these vehicles hard to diagnose, it's the lack of any symptoms at the time that we have it. If theres no MIL, no driveabilty symptoms, no strange noises, or no noticeable complaints, It's very hard to prove your "best educated guess" and no way to prove what's actually wrong unless you just happen to stumble onto the problem. I always try to gather as much information as the customer can give as to the nature of the complaint on every vehicle that I schedule, but sometimes I feel left with these options: (1) spend tons of time trying to duplicate a complaint with hopes that eventually it will show up, (2) make an educated guess and hope it doesn't bite me, or (3) tell the customer that it isn't acting up right now and chance losing them to another shop. None of these appeal to me, but to be honest, I've done all three. How do you bill for time spent on jobs like these?
P.S. I'm always honest with my customer on option 2.
_________________ Keith White
Owner
Whites Auto Service
Tifton, GA, USA
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: suggestions on intermittents?
Our process starts at the front counter when the customer first calls. We set their expectations. We ask if the the problem is intermittent or happening all the time. If the problem is intermittent we ask them questions about what happens, when does it happen, etc. We tell them chasing intermittent it is kind of like fishing, if the fish are biting you may catch one quickly, if they are not biting it may take a long time. The more information they can give us about how to duplicate the problem the better the chances are we can fix it. We get them involved in the process as much as possible.
We ask the customer how much they want to spend for us to test their vehicle. They are told that we may not fix the vehicle and that if the component does not act up when we are testing it, it may test fine. On the service order we will put the specs for the tests and our results. For example; fuel pressure test, the spec is 9 to 13 psi, at idle the fuel pressure is 11.5 psi, at 1500 rpm pressure is 11.5 psi at WOT pressure is 12 psi - passed.
We tell them about pattern failures, TSB’s and Identifix. They are told that if we find that vehicles similar to theirs have had much the same issues we can try that repair and see what happens. There are no guaranties and yes, we charge to do the research.
In the end, if we have not fixed the vehicle we give the customer copies of all testing procedures we did. This includes flow charts, wiring diagrams, etc. We ask them to try to figure out a way to get the vehicle to act up, or any pattern as to when it acts up. If they do, please call us and we will go further.
Set the ground rules first, before you have the vehicle. Charge for what you do. You should not be loosing money doing testing. I call it testing instead of diagnostics. Diagnostics if this big gray nebulas thing. Testing is something a person can understand.
It is the customers money. It is their decision how to spend it.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:54 am Post subject:
Are you looking for a management perspective or a technical perspective? Thanks! Later, Matt.
I agree with Dave as well, educate the client before spending their money. Issues quickly arise when they drop their vehicle off and they perceive you've done little to earn it.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 28 Jul 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Tifton, GA, USA
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject:
Thanks Dave and Matt,
I'm asking from the manager side of the question. I always try to gather as much information as I can from the customer and I also use tools such as identifix and TSBs to help zero in on a fix. The problem I have is billing for time spent when I haven't solved the complaint. I've always felt that if I couldn't help someone, I didn't want to hurt them either. I look at it from my hearts perspective, but it costs my business a lot of money every year.
Many times I've had the customer come and ride with me in these situations, I've tried the most "logical" part, and in some cases have told the customer to bring it back when it's acting up. Sometimes these methods have worked out and sometimes not. I just wondered how other shops handle this from the managers side. Most shops in my area don't think like I do, and from what I've read on this site, they don't think like you either. I want to make money, but it's not all about the money to me. I care about what others think of me. I know I still have alot to learn coming from the tech side of the equation!
_________________ Keith White
Owner
Whites Auto Service
Tifton, GA, USA
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject:
Hi Matt,
MattFMN wrote:
Are you looking for a management perspective or a technical perspective? Thanks! Later, Matt.
I agree with Dave as well, educate the client before spending their money. Issues quickly arise when they drop their vehicle off and they perceive you've done little to earn it.
I would be very interested in your views from a technical perspective as well.
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject:
Keith,
As a tech, we want to fix the problem. As a manager, we need to make money to stay in business. I think you are going through a natural progression in moving from tech to manager/shop owner.
If you go to the Doctor, he runs some tests, prescribes some medication and charges you $. In a few days, if you are not better, back you go to the Dr., he runs more tests, prescribes different medication and charges you more money. This goes on until either you are better or run out of money. Why are we any different than a doctor, or a lawyer, or an accountant, or a financial counselor or any other professional? They get paid for their time, so should we. As a shop we do not have to solve every problem.
If you do not charge properly and go out of business you will be unable to help your clients in the future. Most clients want us to be successful and are willing to pay for that. We have to learn not to think with our pocket book or heart. By doing so, we are taking decisions away from the client that are rightfully theirs.
The customer is the one that has a problem vehicle, not us. We can help them to resolve the issue. We can partner with them to do this, but, it is not our problem.
By charging properly the business can become financially fit. It is now able do some charity work, free or at a reduced rate, and still stay in business.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject:
Louis Altazan wrote:
Hi Matt,
I would be very interested in your views from a technical perspective as well.
I am probably going to find myself on a pretty slippery slope. As with all issues it hinges on data. Data, data, data, and more data. Data from the client (or at least the one experiencing the issue), data from our information sources, data from out test equipment, and data from out logic and experience.
Starting with data from the client. This is all about the SA or technician (or both) completing a thorough customer interview. I know info systems such as Alldata and MOD/ShopKey have pre-designed forms for SA's to fill out, but I think this is a great area for everyone to work on their own set of questions. If the customer is good at making the vehicle act up, by all means go for a ride with a scan tool (I'm going to stick with drive-ability type issues fo the focus of this post even though I know intermittents cover far more than just this one area).
Information systems are a big part in our quest to pinpoint intermittents. Alldata and MOD/ShopKey are the two most popular aftermarket systems. OE subscriptions to their sites is a very good investment as well. Most will let you subscribe for short-term access and are extremely reasonable. Our info systems provide us with TSB's, Recalls, wiring schematics, and Description and Operation of systems and components. Few things are worse than jumping into a diag and not searching you info system only to find out hours later that a reflash is available to cure your issue.
Data from out test equipment. Ask yourself, does your equipment acquire all the data you may require? Will it communicate with all the systems you may need to access? If it does, does it relay that information to you in an accurate manner? We could end up in a OE vs aftermarket equipment debate, but the reality is that some do certain tasks better than others. OE tools will communicate with all systems (that you are allow access to) but may not graph. For intermittents I feel graphing and snapshot/movie functions that trigger manually, by codes setting, or by PIDs (that you've set thresholds for) is imperative. Test driving with the scan tool set to record a datastream movie and hopefully it acts up. Just because it doesn't act up, however, doesn't mean the datastream doesn't hold clues as to the culprit.
There are tools out there known as dataloggers. For issues that are difficult to duplicate you can send one of these relatively inexpensive (relative to the complete scan tool) devices with the client. It connects to the DLC and interfaces with the PCM (namely). When the issue arises the driver simply presses the trigger button and a short movie is recorded. There are aftermarket dataloggers, that usually only do Generic data and OE which would give you Enhanced data. Just something to kick around.
Logic...pretty self explanatory...I think.
Experience...this can help you...or hurt you.
I hope this was what you were looking for. This is a great topic.
Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
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As with all issues it hinges on data. Data, data, data, and more data. Data from the client (or at least the one experiencing the issue), data from our information sources, data from out test equipment, and data from out logic and experience.
