Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: Career Path for Begining Technician
Hi Everyone,
We have one son working with us and another has asked us to give him an opportunity to work in the shop while he is going to school.
We are overjoyed at the thought of maybe one or both sons working towards a future in this business.
Providing them with an outline of milestones and steps on the way to becoming professional techs would be beneficial.
The construction of a "Master Career Path" should have been completed a long time before anyone became employed by VCI. Having admitted our failures, it's time "now"!
Would anyone have any ideas concerning this topic?
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
Mike,
Working with family has its own challenges. I wish you well. I choose not to take over my fathers business because of the potential strain it could have put on our relationship. It was a chance I did not want to take.
Sounds like you are looking at an apprenticeship program. Not sure I help you there. Some advice I can give is to make sure that right from the start your new employee has some successes. Make sure to give him things to do that he can succeed at. Do not set him up for failure. As he learns give him more challenging things to do.
In our industry it seems one of two things happens with young technicians. Either we start the new person at entry level tasks and leave them there, or we throw every job that comes in at them and say good luck, its sink or swim. Then we wonder why the new guys quit the industry in frustration.
If yours is a typical shop he will start by being the person that does the clean up, runs parts, and several other mundane tasks. Teach him the value of these tasks and why it is important to do them well. Have him assist in doing some of the simpler repair jobs. He needs to learn tool names and proper usage. He needs to learn vehicle component names of the large parts. He needs to start learning how to use the information systems. Then move him to doing some of the simple repetitious jobs on vehicles. Replacing shocks, alternators, belts, and lights come to mind.
Then move him to doing removal and replacement of larger, more complicated parts. At this point he needs to start learning the theory of the systems and how they work. As he learns theory, start to give him simple diagnostic jobs. As his diagnostic abilities increase give him tougher diagnostic jobs.
I think the most important thing to teach is how to find the information needed in order to do the repair. You also need to encourage the natural abilities that he has. Teach the basics and make sure he understands them. Teach him not to be afraid to tackle a project he has never done before, but at the same time, know where the limits of his ability are.
Good luck,
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject:
Hi Dave,
Thanks for responding.
Quote:
Working with family has its own challenges. I wish you well. I choose not to take over my fathers business because of the potential strain it could have put on our relationship. It was a chance I did not want to take.
Growing up on the family farm, my father taught my brothers and I most of what we know. Although he had a 5th grade formal education, he had a lot of experience in life and knew how to do lots of things.
As a youngster I thought he walked on water. When I got married and decided to attend the local university our relationship began to feel the strain.
After 3 years of school and a whole lot of personal challenges in both our lives, we went in business together.
To make a long story short our relationship continued to go down hill until I took a job in a nearby town and moved off the farm.
For years I would tell friends that I would not work in a family business.
Colored by my lack of sucess in a family business, every family business I observed seemed to have problems.
My father has since past away and my wife and I were able to take care of him the last 4 1/2 years of his life.
When I began to study Dr Edwards Deming 14 Points for improvement, having a business where family is involved became more doable. Over the last few years my views have began to change.
So, we need your well wishes.
I will post later concerning the remainder of your comments.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject:
Sheesh Mike, you picked a rather complex topic! I don't feel there is a path, at least not a single path that all with the right attitude and aptitude may follow that will take them to "mastery". There are many paths, all lead to the same place and all are a better fit for some than others. I like Dave's suggestion about not putting them in a position where failure is far more likely than success, although perhaps one time of doing this may send a message that auto repair is not something that anyone can do. It is a profession that demands many things, talent and skill being two of them.
Step one, would be education. If they are serious about making this a career, they need a foundation to be built. They need to understand electricity and electronics. They need a basic understanding on how things are supposed to work. It is with you that holes can be filled and specifics laid out on different systems, all with the intent on how the basics always apply.
Not to get off topic, but I was purchasing a book of Amazon one night. It was about chess openings. It was written by none other than Grandmaster Gary Kasparov. Gary, many would argue, is the best chess player to ever sit at a chessboard. I was reading about the book and then glanced over some reviews. I was astonished at how many were very poor. The biggest complaint? The book was not complex or advanced enough. Gary himself actually responded to these reviews. In his response, he stated that it was the knowledge of the basics that he used far, far more often in his career than any advanced strategy. The basics provided for the ability to build up these complex moves and systems he used against many an opponent. So...in retrospect, preach and reinforce the basics. Einstein once said: "Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler".
Hopefully after attending a school that gives them a good foundation, you can help them build upon it. Help them understand the system. Any fool can know, the point is to understand.
After that, it's a lifetime of continuing education. Try to find classes that have a point, preferably with a path. All in logical succession. It doesn't make sense to me to begin a class series with Oxygen Sensor waveform interpretation, then follow it with how to use a DSO. As you can see, the first class requires you to already know how to use one so that if you don't, you cannot take what you learned and apply it.
Also, there are classes that address system theory. I feel these are important. After all, a Chrysler Evap system operates in a different manner than say a GM. Other classes focus on strategy of diagnosing or repairing itself. Learn how to find the theory of operation, then apply this understanding with deductive reasoning to reach a conclusion. One example may be the class teaches how to gather as much data as possible using a spectrum of different equipment.
Try to train everyone in a similar manner. What would be nice to avoid is having multiple techs with totally different tool requirements to perform their tasks. Say I need an exhaust gas analyzer or I'm lost, but another tech needs a DSO. You have both so all is well. But, now I leave and you have a gas analyzer that no longer gets used. What is more expensive than any piece of equipment that doesn't get used?
I could go on and on about this. I feel the business has to decide what it's goals are (what makes are going to be serviced? What systems on these cars will be serviced?) and sit down with the tech and go over available training. Over time, I feel that the business and tech will be able to sort out quality training from the rest.
Let me know if you need me to go in a different direction or elaborate on anything. Nice post, Mike. Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject:
Wonderful Posts!
Matt Wrote
Quote:
I like Dave's suggestion about not putting them in a position where failure is far more likely than success
Dave wrote
Quote:
In our industry it seems one of two things happens with young technicians. Either we start the new person at entry level tasks and leave them there, or we throw every job that comes in at them and say good luck, its sink or swim. Then we wonder why the new guys quit the industry in frustration.
After years of failures and giving many employees ulcers, I'm at least a little better at anticipating those tasks that are wrought with frustration.
My purpose in contemplating a Master Career Path has a number of motives behind them.
1- First and most important is to allow the boys to have a vision of what they are to expect. If we use the phrases such as "Great Auto Tech" or "he knows what he is doing" or "Flate Rate Mechanic" or any other phrases we can think of. Does this communicate what will be involved to reach "Goals" they will set for themselves. Further more these phrases don't communicate what "Goals" are worth pursuing.
To put a more realistic spin on it, I had an entry level tech that after a week began to complain that he wasn't being included in any planning to steer the company. I inquired what gave him the idea that he should be included. He replied that he was told in the interview he would be given opportunies to have input concerning the future of the company.
2- Most professions that I can think of have some sort of path to follow if a person is going to suceed in that profession. There could be some truth in the statement, that because this path exist it will attract and hold more talented, qualified people.
Early in my career in management, the tire company that employed me did not have a career path for Commercial Tire Tech. For a long time I pieced together training from Tire MFG, with limited sucess. Then I stumble on a non-profit organization offering a formal training program. This training had one most attractive element that made all the difference to me. It was doable in the field. At that time I applied and became an Instructor. We then implemented the program and certified all the techs. We put the effort into making sure there was complete understanding of what was required. Upon a techs Certification, we framed the certification doucuments and located them in a prestigous place in offices. We also began to pay them as professionals. We were the first to do this in our state. The workers were proud of themselves. After this the path from entry level to Master Commercial Tech was developed. This consisted of steps, stages and time requirements. I consider, to this day, our attempts to be fruitful. The techs loved it, clients were estatic and the owners, after a period of time grumbling about the cost, began to reap the benifits.
Hope I haven't put everyone asleep. My apologies for any words missed spelled words. I spell poorly and rely heavily on spell check, which is MIA on this computer.
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:07 am Post subject:
I've been doing a great deal of thinking. Not to worry if I'm injured, I have health insurance
Dave Wrote
Quote:
If yours is a typical shop he will start by being the person that does the clean up, runs parts, and several other mundane tasks. Teach him the value of these tasks and why it is important to do them well. Have him assist in doing some of the simpler repair jobs. He needs to learn tool names and proper usage. He needs to learn vehicle component names of the large parts. He needs to start learning how to use the information systems. Then move him to doing some of the simple repetitious jobs on vehicles. Replacing shocks, alternators, belts, and lights come to mind.
Then move him to doing removal and replacement of larger, more complicated parts. At this point he needs to start learning the theory of the systems and how they work. As he learns theory, start to give him simple diagnostic jobs. As his diagnostic abilities increase give him tougher diagnostic jobs.
I think the most important thing to teach is how to find the information needed in order to do the repair. You also need to encourage the natural abilities that he has. Teach the basics and make sure he understands them. Teach him not to be afraid to tackle a project he has never done before, but at the same time, know where the limits of his ability are.
Matt Wrote
Quote:
I don't feel there is a path, at least not a single path that all with the right attitude and aptitude may follow that will take them to "mastery". There are many paths, all lead to the same place and all are a better fit for some than others.
I agree with what has been stated. What I'm considering is a way to organize this into a path or process that would work to keep the boys focused, interested, learning, growing, enjoying and Prosporous. This Master Career path could also keep me more focused on what they need and when
For instance
1-Aptitude testing
The future tech would go through testing to determine his inclination towards a career in auto repair. This may not even be available in the industry, if not then there are test pointed to possible careers choices that could be used.
2-Entry Level Tech
This stage might incompass the tasks you have mentioned. This phase could contain classroom work, let's say an hour a day. At this stage we could also began to recognize interest they may be developing
Please don't misunderstand me, I don't think people are parts on an assembly line. I recognize the need to be flexible and to respond to issues that arise.
More later, Please comment.
Hi Mike First I want to say its great you are encouraging your boys into the trade.I hate to see old techs telling the young ones there is no money or thanks in it and to find a better career.I can only hope my girls may take an intrest one day.
I do agree with the other posts that you need to keep within their skill level but dont be afraid to test them.After all the idea is continual improvement so I suggest giving them jobs one step ahead which you will have to decide as their teacher.Lets face it nothing can kill a eager apprentice faster than a week of busting tires and oil changes.
My personal apprenticeship, was as Dave put it "the sink or swim" method and it actually worked out well for me.I enjoyed going to work and having the variety of jobs aswell as doing the mundane work ,together kept me interested.When I became a class a tech I had alot more on my resume than others that spent a large part of their apprenticeship running for parts or sweep floors.
You really need to have the theory along with the practical work.If you dont understand how the sysem works you wont be able to fix it.In my opinion this is the point where the techs get separated apart from the parts changers.
Good luck to you and your boys the trade needs more great techs!
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:42 am Post subject:
Jason wrote:
Hi Mike First I want to say its great you are encouraging your boys into the trade.I hate to see old techs telling the young ones there is no money or thanks in it and to find a better career.
Hi Jason,
This is such a great point!! I love this trade and have always made a very nice living. I don't think it helps anyone to belittle that which puts bread on the table. Looking for ways to improve it and bringing up problems that exist is creative, simply condemning is not, in my opinion.
A wise man once told me, "If you work for a man [trade] speak well of him. If you can't speak well, resign your position and leave. You may then complain, condemn and criticize as you see fit. As long as they [the trade] pays your wages, speak well of them."
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 20 Location: South Australia
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Career Path for Begining Technician
slimmv wrote:
Hi Everyone,
We have one son working with us and another has asked us to give him an opportunity to work in the shop while he is going to school.
We are overjoyed at the thought of maybe one or both sons working towards a future in this business.
Providing them with an outline of milestones and steps on the way to becoming professional techs would be beneficial.
The construction of a "Master Career Path" should have been completed a long time before anyone became employed by VCI. Having admitted our failures, it's time "now"!
Would anyone have any ideas concerning this topic?
Hi Mike,
My father started his own auto business 30 years ago. As a child I used to help around the garage but always had other professions in mind when looking forward to when I left school.
At 17 I changed my mind and asked Dad for an apprenticeship. He said NO, stay at school and get into another industry. Soon after I left school and went to work in a bank, and I hated being indoors all day.
When push came to shove I told Dad if you do not apprentice me I will get an apprenticeship elsewhere. He relented and gave me a job.
We worked together for 15 years before he retired and I bought his business. We worked very well together as we are very like minded. So it can work, and work well.
Back to the post topic, here in Australia we have a good career path for an auto tech. It starts with a 4 year apprenticeship that the government heavily subsidises. It involves a contract of training between the employer and apprentice. The apprentice attends 3 years of schooling (approx 8 weeks per year). Their schooling involves them completing practical and written assessment's in the form of modules.
The modules include alternators, air-conditioning, safety in the work place, welding, fuel injection, transmissions etc. Their last year is normally timed to be school free, at the end of four years they become a certified tradesman.
After four years they can go on to do other training at an advanced level. The 4 year apprenticeship qualifies them to certification 3 level. Cert 4 requires advanced training in many of the same courses as before with some management modules thrown in.
Then after Cert 4 you can go on to Diploma level which requires the completion of management modules, consisting of marketing, budgeting, people management, etc.
The apprenticeship is very widely used in Australia for many trades.
Cert 4 & 5 unfortunately are not as widely used. Those doing 4 & 5 are normally techs that have "found out about it" and then attend with the ambition of bettering themselves. Many owners here do not encourage the techs to attend.
If anyone is interested in Cert 1 & 2 levels I can also explain how these work?
_________________ David Vidler
Owner/ Manager - Seaside Automotive
South Australia
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject:
Dave wrote
Quote:
Teach the basics and make sure he understands them.
Matt wrote
Quote:
Step one, would be education. If they are serious about making this a career, they need a foundation to be built. They need to understand electricity and electronics. They need a basic understanding on how things are supposed to work. It is with you that holes can be filled and specifics laid out on different systems, all with the intent on how the basics always apply.
Good Evening
Tell me if I understand correctly. The foundation needed should come from schools? Do you think that this foundation has to come from an outside source or can it be provided in house.
My sons or no different than a lot of other young people I come in contact, they are working at present for the money. It would be optimum if they could continue to work and also acquire a foundation for auto repair at the same time.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Career Path for Begining Technician
Seaside wrote:
If anyone is interested in Cert 1 & 2 levels I can also explain how these work?
Hi David,
I have for a long time been very interested in your system of technical education. I hope one day to travel to Australia and view it first hand. I would be very interested in whatever details you might share. Thanks
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject:
slimmv wrote:
Dave wrote
Quote:
Teach the basics and make sure he understands them.
Matt wrote
Quote:
Step one, would be education. If they are serious about making this a career, they need a foundation to be built. They need to understand electricity and electronics. They need a basic understanding on how things are supposed to work. It is with you that holes can be filled and specifics laid out on different systems, all with the intent on how the basics always apply.
Good Evening
Tell me if I understand correctly. The foundation needed should come from schools? Do you think that this foundation has to come from an outside source or can it be provided in house.
My sons or no different than a lot of other young people I come in contact, they are working at present for the money. It would be optimum if they could continue to work and also acquire a foundation for auto repair at the same time.
What do you think?
Have to is rather strong. Appropriate, maybe. In a shop environment with work going in and out the door it is very difficult to be hosting "class". Can it be done after hours? Sure. My aim was that hopefully you have a decent school nearby, and that after going to say Starting/Charging class, you could have a real life example or two in the shop. Even if the vehicle isn't in for that specific issue, you could discuss how this Chrysler has the PCM controlling alternator output via field control, where this GM is simply turned on by the L terminal and the rest is internally controlled. Let them learn the basics of electricity and such at the school, than you can put it all into perspective.
One thing I learned at my tech college is that they gave me a big head and blindfolded me. Some hard life experiences opened my eyes and leveled my head. I wish dearly that I would have been going to school when I ended up with the employer that really helped me spread my wings. I feel he could have kept me grounded while helping me apply what I had learned in real life situations. Most of the schools I know have you in class for 3hrs a day, in the "lab" for an hour. Do this for a year and a half and they hand you a diploma, slap you on the back, and tell you that you know how to fix cars. Then reality hits.
I feel it is very difficult to go into teaching theory and strategy on the fly. I'm not saying anything is impossible, just difficult. HTH. Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject:
Matt Wrote
Quote:
Not to get off topic, but I was purchasing a book of Amazon one night. It was about chess openings. It was written by none other than Grandmaster Gary Kasparov. Gary, many would argue, is the best chess player to ever sit at a chessboard. I was reading about the book and then glanced over some reviews. I was astonished at how many were very poor. The biggest complaint? The book was not complex or advanced enough. Gary himself actually responded to these reviews. In his response, he stated that it was the knowledge of the basics that he used far, far more often in his career than any advanced strategy. The basics provided for the ability to build up these complex moves and systems he used against many an opponent. So...in retrospect, preach and reinforce the basics. Einstein once said: "Things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler".
Hi Matt
How profound, and I think it is very much on topic
This reminds me of the time I talked Louis into doing training for one of my previous employers. Louis questioned me concerning where the needs might exist. We discussed the fact that there were needs too numerous to count. I will never forget what Louis told me, "If you want to improve began doing the services you are already doing better"
The service manager was furious with us when he discovered that the training would cover "Brake Service". We already know how to do a brake job
The end results were fantastic. The guys heard more concerning Brake Services than they could have imagined. The next day ideas began to fly back and forth amongst the Tech, what could be done to implement the wealth of information they had been given? These were techs that had been in the business for years.
Thanks for your help, your post has been most helpful.
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 20 Location: South Australia
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Career Path for Begining Technician
louis wrote:
Seaside wrote:
If anyone is interested in Cert 1 & 2 levels I can also explain how these work?
Hi David,
I have for a long time been very interested in your system of technical education. I hope one day to travel to Australia and view it first hand. I would be very interested in whatever details you might share. Thanks
Hi Louis,
Certificate 1 is an auto awareness course often performed by a student who has not yet found employment in the automotive field. Usually the course is done full time for 6 months. Those students that are still interested in the field, often move on to full time employment in the auto industry as either an apprentice or they secure a trainee ship.
Certificate 2 is usually known as a trainee ship. It is often a contract of employment between an employer and a student for 12 months. The student works in the business while attending school part time. The modules covered in a trainee ship are very similar to the modules performed by a 1st year Cert 3 student (apprenticeship).
On completion of Cert 2 the student is often taken on as an apprentice by an employer (not necessarily the original employer). Sometimes the Cert 3 apprentice will start Cert 3 as a second year student as the Cert 2 course completed successfully can be presented as evidence that year one has been completed.
The system is not perfect and there if often discussion regarding the content and effectiveness of courses, but overall I find the system works well.
_________________ David Vidler
Owner/ Manager - Seaside Automotive
South Australia
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject:
slimmv wrote:
Good Evening
Tell me if I understand correctly. The foundation needed should come from schools? Do you think that this foundation has to come from an outside source or can it be provided in house.
My sons or no different than a lot of other young people I come in contact, they are working at present for the money. It would be optimum if they could continue to work and also acquire a foundation for auto repair at the same time.
What do you think?
Mike,
The basics can be taught any place. It may be easier and more cost effective to be learned at school, but it does not have to be done there. Just make sure they learn and understand the basics. We send our children to school to learn to read, write, and do 'rithmetic. They learn how to apply these skills after their formal education is done.
I my opinion most techs do not have a firm grasp of the basics of electricity. They do not have a working knowledge of Ohms law. They do not understand the difference between 10 ohms and 10,000 ohms of resistance. They do not know the difference between a parallel and a series circuit, or the fact that electricity needs a complete circuit in order to flow. In my mind these are basic things that a tech needs to understand. I think that these can be best learned at school. The student can then see some practical application in the shop.
It depends how much you want to teach at the shop. Personally, I think it is a better plan to let the schools teach the basics. Then follow up in the shop by building on and expanding on what they have learned. You need to leverage your time and effort as much as possible.
Seems to me that you are also a member of iATN. Send Jeff Curtis (he teaches college level truck repair) an email about the curriculum he teaches in his classes. It may give you a starting place.
Keep your chin up,
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 38 Location: New Iberia, La.70560
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:17 am Post subject:
Dave wrote
Quote:
Seems to me that you are also a member of iATN. Send Jeff Curtis (he teaches college level truck repair) an email about the curriculum he teaches in his classes. It may give you a starting place.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Career Path for Begining Technician
Seaside wrote:
Hi Louis,
Certificate 1 is an auto awareness course often performed by a student who has not yet found employment in the automotive field. Usually the course is done full time for 6 months. Those students that are still interested in the field, often move on to full time employment in the auto industry as either an apprentice or they secure a trainee ship.
Certificate 2 is usually known as a trainee ship. It is often a contract of employment between an employer and a student for 12 months. The student works in the business while attending school part time. The modules covered in a trainee ship are very similar to the modules performed by a 1st year Cert 3 student (apprenticeship).
On completion of Cert 2 the student is often taken on as an apprentice by an employer (not necessarily the original employer). Sometimes the Cert 3 apprentice will start Cert 3 as a second year student as the Cert 2 course completed successfully can be presented as evidence that year one has been completed.
The system is not perfect and there if often discussion regarding the content and effectiveness of courses, but overall I find the system works well.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
I don't feel there is a path, at least not a single path that all with the right attitude and aptitude may follow that will take them to "mastery". There are many paths, all lead to the same place and all are a better fit for some than others. I like Dave's suggestion about not putting them in a position where failure is far more likely than success, although perhaps one time of doing this may send a message that auto repair is not something that anyone can do. It is a profession that demands many things, talent and skill being two of them.
We already know how to do a brake job 
